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"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." [Mark 16:17-18]

A Christian writes: These scriptures are talking about being filled with the Holy Spirit and casting out demons and laying hands on the the sick. The serpents are symbolic of demons. Also- "...if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them..."-saying that God will protect them from any harm.

You can see over 20 translations of Mark 16:15-20 here.

All make it clear that Jesus is referring to all believers - not just to the apostles.

There is nothing to indicate that the serpents are symbolic. And do you really believe in demons? And God most certainly has not protected Christians from "any harm". If God exists and he protects those who believe in him, then why do bad things happen to Christians?

Kar202 says he believes "every verse in the Bible". Then how can he believe in God, when God will not protect him from poison and snakes?

PTET

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A Christian writes about open-mindedness: It is a good thing from an individual standpoint. It's great to let everyone have their own opinions, but when it comes to personal beliefs you need to know that you are the only one who is right. There is only one right answer. Kill people because they don't believe what you do? Dumb. Let everyone's opinion and beliefs affect your own? That makes you a piece of silly putty and a tool letting anyone influence you. Compromising your beliefs so that you can have the title of "open-minded" wonderful person is quite ridiculous. Someone who say I am right and you are right and we are all gods, is someone who has no identity and no convictions about anything.

But how do you know that you are the one that is right? Inclusiveness does not always mean "compromising your beliefs". It means being aware that other people may have different beliefs than yours - and that they may have something useful to teach you.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" - 1 Thes 5:21

It also means realising that often there is no "one right answer". Did Jesus ascend from Bethany as Luke claims (24:50-51) or Mount Olivet as it says in Acts (1:9-12)? Perhaps it was one then the other. Perhaps it was both - or neither. Perhaps it doesn't actually matter.

If you are going to hold onto beliefs which "cannot be compromised", is it not important to be sure that they are right? How do you know if you only take guidance from those who reject any possibility that they might be wrong?

Fundamentalism of all sorts does just that. The Communists did in Soviet Russia. The Nazis did it in Germany. Christian Fundamentalists openly admit to it:

"By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information." - Answers In Genesis, Statement of Faith. (D). 6

This allows them to completely ignore evidence which contradicts their own interpretation of the Bible.

The vast majority of academics, for example, say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Universe is billions of years old; and that life evolves through common descent; and that the Bible, while a remarkable book, is not an unbiased and wholly accurate history of ancient Israel. (See here for a host of references).

Yes we should have convictions. Yes we should struggle for what we think is right. But if we are not open and honest about the basis of our beliefs; if we lie to ourselves or to others about the evidence for or against what we stand for; then what good is that? How are we any better than the maniacs who believed that they would be rewarded in paradise with "great wealth and 72 virgins" for crashing passenger planes into the Twin Towers in the name of their God?

They thought that there was only one answer. They didn't compromise their beliefs. They knew that they were the ones who were right.

PTET

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[Another Christian writes]: For those who mistakenly believe that scientific facts show little likelihood of the existence of God... Whew! Where have you been?

Well, well, well... Another liar for Christ.

In the past few decades there have been VERY OUTSPOKEN SCIENTISTS who have indeed accepted God and Christianity BECAUSE OF THEIR RESEARCH. The world is mathematically designed and that shows the very evidence of it being created. Open your eyes, your minds and your hearts to the Creator.

Name one scientist in the last decade who went from being an atheist to a Christian following their scientific research. One. Go ahead. Make my day.

The hardest thing for "non-believers" to do is to accept their accountability for their actions. "I don't believe in a God that makes you accountable." Why would anyone want to spend ETERNITY with those souls who are not?

Everyone *is* accountable for their actions. To themselves; to their peers; and to society as a whole. But go ahead, Helianna, repeat the lie that Believers in God are the only people capable of morality.

While you're at it, explain to me why the largely secular and less-sexually-repressed West Europeans have lower crime and teenage pregancy rates than the Christian Bible-Belt in the USA? *

Forget having to account to God... what about those around you, those who love you and care about you? Don't you see that your actions speak to all of those who see you live your lives day after day?

I do, but you clearly don't. Do you really believe that if you stopped believing in God, you would become a murdering sex-fiend? That's what you imply when you say that non-believers are immoral.

Christians who abide the word and works of God are those who accept full responsibility for the choices they make and the actions they take, because they are aware that it isn't just God who is watching. It is everyone around them. He is a loving God, but just as your earthly father wants you to succeed, to make the right choices and to be happy, so does your Heavenly Father.

Believe what you want, Helianna. Just don't lie when you're doing it. It makes God cry ;>

PTET

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[A Christian writes:] Christianity is the faith that makes sense...

Christianity says that the vast majority of mankind which now lives or has ever existed will be damned because they don't believe that Jesus is the son of God.

It says than an omnipotent, omniescent, Universe-spanning being requires us to love him freely through our own choice - or he'll get jealous and punish us with eternal hellfire.

It tells us to be overwhelmed by the love of God when things go well for us - but that it's our own fault for being born sinners when things go wrong.

Clearly you are using some definition of the words "makes sense" of which I have previously been unaware.

PTET

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Hello Kar202

Your faith is obviously very important to you. I have no desire to cause you pain. You have your opinions:

* "Evolution has many flaws"
* The Earth is ~6,000 years old
* "Most Christians are hypocrites and fakes..."
* You are "the chief of sinners" who marvels "at God's grace"
* You believe every verse in the Bible
* Most people - and most so-called Christians - are eternally damned

Then there are some things you say which are just odd:

* "Few Catholics are actually devout" (Huh!?)
* "talk.origins is hardly respectable" (You never say why...)
* I supposedly "hate Christianity" because it infringes my "carnal desires"


...And then you say things which are just plainly and simply *lies*:

Lie #1: "many scientists today... are biblical creationists"
Fact: Around ~0.14% of US earth & life scientists are Biblical Creationists
See: here

Lie #2: "many evolutionists are beginning to consider intelligent design"
Fact: The NCSE's "Project Steve" shows this claim to be simply ridiculous
See: here

Lie #3: evolution is a "materialistic faith"
Fact: Most Christian & Jewish organisations accept the scientific view of evolution
See: here

Lie #4: "Evolutionists have yet to show ONE instance of new information being added to the genome"
Fact: The scientific literature says otherwise
See: here

Lie #5 : "Already the public school systems are beginning to teach intelligent design side by side with evolution"
Fact: The US courts in "Freiler v. Tangipahoa Parish Board" ruled that proposals for teaching "intelligent design" were equivalent to "creation science" and thus unconstitutional
See: here


You don't have to believe that the Earth is billions of years old, Kar202, or that life has evolved through common descent. But it is *dishonest* to pretend that anything other than a proportionately tiny number of Fundamentalist scientists agree with you.

I call you a liar, Kar202, because that is what you are. You present a fantasy world where Behe's "Intelligent Design" has significant scientific support and somehow helps Biblical Creationism. It doesn't - Behe accepts evolution through common descent, and specifically says that ID can't say anything about the creator. (ID is a crock too, but for different reasons). You claim that evolutionary theory comes from atheism. It doesn't. You claim that science has no evidence for evolution. Scientists overwhelmingly say otherwise.

If you want to be more "Christlike", Kar202, I suggest you stop *lying*.

PTET

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[A Christian writes:] If evolution was so safe, so true, so accepted by open minded individuals, I would have never became a creationist. I went to the public schools. I was indoctrinated in evolution along with every other student. I knew nothing about creationism. Furthermore, I was indoctrinated in the home: my father is a master geologist and subscribes to evolution. I loved dinosaurs as a kid and had the entire geologic timeline memorized, going back 4.5 billion years. I know evolutionary history quite well, I understand how it supposedly works. When I encountered certain problems, however, such as information theory, I began to research with an open mind and found that, indeed, evolution has many flaws.

You think so? How on Earth does that justify your blatant and repeated lies about what scientists as a whole think about evolution?

Atheism is built on naturalism, which is a philosophy with its own assumptions. Take any entry level social science course and you will understand this.

Again with the lies! Did some part of your brain just switch off when you became a Fundamentalist? Will you accept and state openly that most Christian scientists accept evolution as science teaches?

Anyway, appealing to talk.origins is hardly respectable, so let's forget the linking.

Again with the ad hominems! You have never provided any reason for your disdain for TalkOrigins. Since it merely reflects overwhelming scientific opinion, I can only think that it causes so much trauma to your world-view that you can't cope with it.

If you want to debate a specific point in the CvE controversey, please ask. Email me at w00tw00thaha@hotmail.com or start a new thread. I really am not so much interested in feeling "right" for my own glory as I am simply sharing Christ with you, because Christ gave me a joy that carnal pleasures could never provide.

Thanks for the offer, but I think you need to work out your sexual hang-ups for yourself.

PTET

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[A Christian writes:] Anyone who hates Christianity this much must surely know it is true, otherwise why would they be so angry? Perhaps because it infringes on their carnal desires?

I don't "hate Christianity". I do hate ignorance, bigotry and hypocrisy, three things which Fundamentalism of all flavours - religious and secular - show in abundance.

Just imagine, if Christianity was true, you wouldn't be allowed induldge in carnal lusts, such as sexual immorality. Doesn't that just boil your blood? If I was that in love with my sin, I would no doubt be attacking Christianity with such vitriol, too.

I don't worry myself with thousands-of-years old myths and sexual hang-ups - or ad hominem attacks from self-righteous bigots.

Since you do apparently believe in Christianity, you should perhaps worry yourself about the lies you insist upon repeating in post after post about what scientists and academics say about evolution, religion and the Bible.

Most Christians do not believe that the Bible is the final arbiter on matters of science. Most Christian scientists are happy to accept that the Earth is billions of years old, and that mankind has evolved though common descent.

You don't have to believe these things yourself, Kar202. What I object to is your continued denial of what others believe. The simple truth is that Fundamentalism *lies* about what others think and say.

Isn't that sinful? Isn't that wrong?

PTET

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[A Christian writes:] So mock away if you like, and to those who feel they are being parodied instead of getting all defensive, ask yourself what it is that makes them make fun of us so much.

Because you are pompous arrogant book-worshippers with a persecution complex, perhaps?

You give a pretty accurate description of Christianity yourself: "a 1700 year old doctrine and dogma and politically mandated ideal"

Almost every aspect of Christianity can be traced to before or after the supposed time of Jesus. The sermon on the mount, for example, is strikingly similar to the teachings of the Qumran "Teacher of Righteousness", who pre-dated Jesus. Some of the forged letters attributed to Paul weren't written for decades after his death.

Of course, there are two further aspects of the teachings of Jesus which you seem to know very little about - humility and inclusiveness.

You know what would be *really* nice? A "rapture" of the self-righteous. With all the Fundamentalists gone, the world would be a much safer, saner and less whiney place.

PTET

I've made a rather vitriolic post to the IMBD "Saved" message board about Creationist lies. Read it for yourself.

Gosh! It's been six months since I posted here. I guess I've been doing other things. For a while at least, dealing with Fundamentalists doesn't seem to have been the first thing on my agenda... Anyway, I'm back, and with the new Blogger tools you can leave your own comments in response to my posts. So go ahead - make my day!

I've posted a couple of messages to the IMDB message board for the new movie Saved! - check them out...